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mrbunnyban

DefaultHigh Hate Tank build example

I think I've seen enough threads talking about how generating hate is a big issue for tanks ever since Crimson Theatre has been nerfed. Here's just one example of a build which sacrifices some mitigation for a great deal of hate generation - its NOT meant to be an optimised build, but should give some ideas about additional hate generation (hence all the notes about what skills you can switch out).

This build excels in creating large bursts of hate, which is good for aggro resets in particular. You should stack block like *crazy* for this build.

http://www.tsw-builder.com/#52v51157...23251216512551

Actives.

1) Escalation - mandatory, for various reasons. Nuff 'said.
2) Reality Fracture - we're rolling with chaos and hammers, so this replaces Crimson Theatre.
3) Trucker - this is what you open the fight with. Hop back every 20 seconds to use it repeatedly.
4) Razor Shards- apparently +50% hate to next attack at full resources. This is what you use right after Trucker. You can let yourself be hit til you block first, if you want. (see passives)
5) Stone's Throw - and this is what you use right after Razor Shards.
6) Stoicism - Possibly bugged to reduce damage by only 10%, but its here for the 500% threat generation. (switch this out if you like)
7) Provoke- if someone does outpace your hate generation (which is shocking), this puts you back on top of the hate list. If after a fight with your team from pugs you find you didn't need to use Provoke at all, you can switch this out.

Options: Ideally, you should really use an interrupt of choice for NM dungeons. Stonewalled, Immutable, or a second Chaos consumer is also good.
Keeps in mind that Blade Torrent has much more hate generation than Escalation (about 2.6 times hate generation compared to a normal builder. Escalation appears to have about 1.5 times more hate generation than a normal builder due to low damage and lower multiplier). We're running with the general consensus that Escalation is mandatory for other reasons.

Passives.

1) Agitator - Of course.
2) You're Next - after blocking an attack, you generate TWICE as much hate for 6 seconds.
3) Cool, Calm and Collected - blocking generates hate and other effects. Nobody knows how much hate exactly. (switch this out if you like)
4) Fuel to the Fire - 200 hate per hit (switch this out if you like)
5) Extended Fracture - boosts Reality Fracture just a little (switch this out if you like)
6) Inevitability - Good against bosses with reasonably fast attacks. Not so good against slow but hard hitting bosses (switch this out if you like)
7) Intensity - part of what makes Escalation so wonderful. Use it. Please.

Options: Stone Cold, Turbulence, Hardcase, Forged in Fire, Fever Pitch - lots of options here. Go nuts.

How it works:
Trucker charges the enemy, which is always good, AND give major block chance. Razor Shards not only generates additional hate for itself, but also for the next attack. Stone's Throw is a single target high hate generating attack, and is used right after razor shards whenever possible.
Blocking doubles all hate generation thanks to You're Next.
Agitator, as usual, triples all hate generation.

Edit: Okay, as confirmed by myself and Enepptastic that the in-game status from Razor Shards indicates that it grants +50% hate to the next attack. Not as much as we'd hoped, but should still work nicely with Stone's Throw assuming that it multiplies the same way everything else does.
Last edited by mrbunnyban; 08-11-2012 at 04:01 AM.

Lucubration

This looks like quite a decent approach to hammer tanking. I've been thinking about giving hammers a shot for a little while now. The only issue I have with it is Stone's Throw taking a utility slot. I suppose you could argue that having a high-threat ranged attack is utility, and you probably wouldn't be wrong. That slot usually holds an interrupt for me, though.

One concern I have is replacing Crimson Theatre with Razor Shards; I just can't imagine it's that good. We haven't been giving much insight into whether Razor Shards itself and its buff for the next attack adds a static or scaling amount of extra hate to the next attack. I understand that the buff for the next attack scales based on resources consumed, but does it also scale based on damage done or is it a static amount per resource consumed?

I ask this because the language used for razor shards really deviates from other conventions. Attacks with a scaling hate modifier tend to say "generates a high amount of hate", while attacks with a static amount tend to say specifically "generates 200 extra hate". Razor Shards is the only attack that says "increases enemies' hate towards you" and "a hate increasing effect" so I really have no way of knowing how those effects work.

Interestingly enough, threat wasn't an issue for me last night when I returned to tanking with just random purple NM drops after being DPS for the last month. I still ran a generic Escalate/CT/RF build against DPS with 3 or more 10.4 items and had almost no threat issues. I expect that nine times out of ten, the answer is just ability use on the pull: CT, Stoicism, Escalate into RF.

Karmakoma

Karmakoma's Avatar

warning : I m just a noob in QL 5-7 gear, with no elite experience...

So I m basing my tanking estimation on Fusang test where I can hold agro from the "Protector" when attacking a complex.

http://www.tsw-builder.com/#52v51157...14512251551g23

this is enough to keep agro tbh

if a noob in ql 5-7 can keep agro from dps in 10 purple.... it should be ok

mrbunnyban

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucubration View Post
This looks like quite a decent approach to hammer tanking. I've been thinking about giving hammers a shot for a little while now. The only issue I have with it is Stone's Throw taking a utility slot. I suppose you could argue that having a high-threat ranged attack is utility, and you probably wouldn't be wrong. That slot usually holds an interrupt for me, though.

One concern I have is replacing Crimson Theatre with Razor Shards; I just can't imagine it's that good. We haven't been giving much insight into whether Razor Shards itself and its buff for the next attack adds a static or scaling amount of extra hate to the next attack. I understand that the buff for the next attack scales based on resources consumed, but does it also scale based on damage done or is it a static amount per resource consumed?

I ask this because the language used for razor shards really deviates from other conventions. Attacks with a scaling hate modifier tend to say "generates a high amount of hate", while attacks with a static amount tend to say specifically "generates 200 extra hate". Razor Shards is the only attack that says "increases enemies' hate towards you" and "a hate increasing effect" so I really have no way of knowing how those effects work.

Interestingly enough, threat wasn't an issue for me last night when I returned to tanking with just random purple NM drops after being DPS for the last month. I still ran a generic Escalate/CT/RF build against DPS with 3 or more 10.4 items and had almost no threat issues. I expect that nine times out of ten, the answer is just ability use on the pull: CT, Stoicism, Escalate into RF.
What an insightful response! I concentrated so much on the hate generation spiel that I forgot about interrupts (as I said, its just an example), will edit a note about that.

Unfortunately, you are quite right about Razor Shard's exact effects being really vague. I suppose the only real way to know would be through testing. This could take quite awhile I'm afraid, and I won't be able to answer that any time soon.

In any case, half of this build's hate building power comes from You're Next and piling up block chance. You're Next's description is pretty clear - doubled hate generation for 10 seconds after a block. Again however, the only real way of knowing is through testing.
Edit: ...or not. Twice as much hate for 10 seconds, or twice as much hate for that one attack? Oh dear, I've got to reconfirm this as soon as I have time to play.
Last edited by mrbunnyban; 08-07-2012 at 05:28 PM.

improvedai

improvedai's Avatar

I also use a Chaos/Hammer Build similar to this one, and I really like what you are doing here.

Some feedback from my usage in NM - I only have have room for either Stone's Throw or Provoke, depending on the situation I like one better than the other. I ended up needing Beatdown in my extra Utility slot.

Cool, Calm, and Collected wasn't enough for me, as much as I wanted to use it. The problem is I ended up having decent reactive aggro (via block), but not enough active aggro (when the boss wasn't hitting me directly and at high speeds). I ended up swapping in From the Abyss and got much better results, plus this added to my AoE spike threat/damage. Flight of Daggers works here too.

I also agree, Trucker is a a gem - has a shorter cooldown than Stonewalled (even with its passive), and includes a charge.

I have about 790 Block I think, which is cool, but when i went over my logs I still wasn't blocking as much as I thought I would though. I also use both a blocking Kickback and Stimulant.

Happy Blocking!
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mrbunnyban

Quote:
Originally Posted by improvedai View Post
I also use a Chaos/Hammer Build similar to this one, and I really like what you are doing here.

Some feedback from my usage in NM - I only have have room for either Stone's Throw or Provoke, depending on the situation I like one better than the other. I ended up needing Beatdown in my extra Utility slot.

Cool, Calm, and Collected wasn't enough for me, as much as I wanted to use it. The problem is I ended up having decent reactive aggro (via block), but not enough active aggro (when the boss wasn't hitting me directly and at high speeds). I ended up swapping in From the Abyss and got much better results, plus this added to my AoE spike threat/damage. Flight of Daggers works here too.

I also agree, Trucker is a a gem - has a shorter cooldown than Stonewalled (even with its passive), and includes a charge.

I have about 790 Block I think, which is cool, but when i went over my logs I still wasn't blocking as much as I thought I would though. I also use both a blocking Kickback and Stimulant.

Happy Blocking!
Heh, that's why I said Cool, Calm and Collected can be switched out. The point of the original post was was to make a build with really large hate generation to show people what's possible since many people are complaining about being unable to hold aggro... I should make that clearer in the original post.

I have to say though, I'm happy to hear that you can get away without using Provoke sometimes in NM.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Karmakoma View Post
warning : I m just a noob in QL 5-7 gear, with no elite experience...

So I m basing my tanking estimation on Fusang test where I can hold agro from the "Protector" when attacking a complex.

http://www.tsw-builder.com/#52v51157...14512251551g23

this is enough to keep agro tbh

if a noob in ql 5-7 can keep agro from dps in 10 purple.... it should be ok
This is pretty impressive, actually. But what we really should ask is, what is the percentage of DPS items you were using? All greens or blues?

hardicon

ive been using a chaos/hammer build since day one and never really had a problem with keeping aggro. wasnt as easy as blade was when crimson theatre was broke but it has not been hard.

Heartkilla

Hate gen works fine for tanks so long as you are using Stoicism + Agitator. You won't have problems with it and hate gen abilities. Well, that and you aren't glancing or being evaded either. Which is why RF and CT work as they are fire and forget abilities that do not glance and generate hate.

Karmakoma

Karmakoma's Avatar

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrbunnyban View Post
This is pretty impressive, actually. But what we really should ask is, what is the percentage of DPS items you were using? All greens or blues?
In fact, after a tad more thinking, I m not sure my post was not misleading ...
About your question, when messing in funzang, I put 50% tank 50% DPS talisments... but I forgot I had the "DPS suit" ... so it may change all the deal there...

no idea in fact...

Rhazmuz

Rhazmuz's Avatar

My current setup looks like this:

http://www.drakkashi.com/secretworld...33=2&37=1&74=1

Im stacking mainly block and physical resist atm, and would like to know if you guys think that getting Fuel to the fire (extra hate on each hit) would be beneficial over inevitability (Chance for +10%& evade)?

In the Nms I have tried the biggest issue seems to be hate at the initial part of a fight (a like Ur-Daug), survivability isnt that big an issue.
- Rhazmuz - Nr. 1 Sexy Beast Tank EU -

- Department of Occult Warfare -

"They say you are what you eat.. But I dont remember eating a fu**ing legend"
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