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Thread: Tanking: Protection (Phys/Mag) vs Mitigation (Evade/Glance/Evade)

  1. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Warin View Post
    Protection is looking good!:
    Code:
    Rating	Damage  DR      Rat/%
    249	12,194	0,00%   
    315	11848	2,85%   23,2
    454	11,382	6,66%   30,8
    648	10,733	11,98%  33,3
    714	10,556	13,44%  34,6

    Amount of Rating needed to reduce damage by 1% is between 23 and 35 in this sample, it starting at 249 instead of 0 is messing with the "cost" so to say. It's going to decrease in efficiency slower and slower though.
    Protection is looking very hot right now, bad thing it ofcourse can't proc anything like the other stats, AND you have to know what you're up against. But it prevents burst much better than all other defensive stats.

    Lets compare it to the DR you get from stacking mitigation. NB Theese numbers ignore enemy penetration and critical hits.
    Code:
           Proc	Cost	Rating needed for 1% DR
    Block  39,88	33	82,75
    Glance 74	44	59,46
    Evade  142	66	46,48
    Protection is better than even evade, but it reduces every hit (of EITHER magical or physical), also it doesn't reduce penetration damage.

    (How I do this, let 1 kind of mob hit me for around 3k times per rating. Then remove glancing, blocks, crits and penetrates. Comparing only average normal damage over 2k ish hits per rating to eachother. Also make sure I remove RNG where at all possible)

    Thanks to Rekreant, who's been very persistent in claiming that prot is good even though everyone else said it sucks.

    Protection doesn't have static DR based on rating. It depends on what kind of hit you are taking (which the information in-game states). From my lunchbreak testing, on the first boss in Polaris elite and the addpack before that I came up with these results:

    Bear in-mind this isn't hundred percent accurate, but it gives you an idea of what is important here.

    The small adds hit me for about 100, while the first boss hit me for around 800 with base physical protection. The second time I did the exact same thing only with around 750 protection. This time the small adds hit be for about 88 (which seems to be in line with what you've posted), but the boss which previously hit me for 800 now hit me for 580 a hit.

    It seems to me, the harder the base attack, the more mitigation in percentage you get in return. If that is true, protection is increasinly more valuable against hard hitting bosses, while evade might come out top against a pack of low hitting mobs/bosses.

    Here's some random values of what I get hit for today with 612 magical protection + minor ward + debilitate:

    DemolishMachine Tyrant NM) Max 9.5k unmitgated |lowest (Stoicism + blocked) 3.5k.

    Searing Brand: Max hit (- debilitate) 7.1k | Min hit (Stoicism + blocked) 2k.

    Machine Tyrant with 847 physical protection + minor ward + debilitate:
    Max hit 2083 (crit) | Min hit 147 (Stoicism, 17 % Ablation, 4 % Salvation, Block, Evade proc (I giggled here)) |Median 1148

    Ur-Draug:
    Max hit 2070 | Min hit 1088 (Stoicism + blocked, 4 % Salvation) | Median 1513

  2. #12
    This is pretty much just like WoW.

    Anyways, we always knew Protection was good, but there are caveats. We still want defense/block to defend against criticals/penetrates ('ve actually rarely seen criticals against me, but there's loads of other good yummy defense related things, like Sixth Sense, Survival Sword and Riposte).

    I've been throwing Physical Protection on my "custom" gear which allows me flexibility of swapping our between magical/physical/evade/block/defense on my dungeon dropped gear.

    Other food for thought include throwing evade/defense/block on to your relevant weapons as well.

    One super important thing though: Magical AND Physical Protection DO NOT work against Filth damage. However, some Filth attacks can be blocked/glanced/evaded.

  3. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by En-Guard View Post
    Searing Brand: Max hit (- debilitate) 7.1k | Min hit (Stoicism + blocked) 2k.
    Interesting... so I was looking at this and thinking you could potentially facetank Searing Brand (and other large hits) with enough protection of the appropriate type.

    Then I remembered in the first post Warin mentioned that protection has no effect on Penetrating hits, so it got me wondering: Is the mechanic for penetrating hits to simply ignore the relevant protection stat? If most mobs have relatively static protection values, this would account for the DPS perception that Penetrating hits are something like +60% damage (or whatever), but in reality, they might be much more effective against mobs with high protection. It should be easy enough to test in the fight club. Have a heal-tank with high protection vs. a dps spamming a builder. Then swap to remove the protection and compare. If this hypothesis is true, the penetrating hits should do about the same damage, but the normal hits should be much higher vs. no protection.

    If that's true, then Block/Protection might be an ideal tanking strategy: Enough block to minimize/eliminate incoming penetrating hits and then lots of protection of the appropriate type to reduce the rest of the hits to nothing.

  4. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by DirewolfX View Post
    If that's true, then Block/Protection might be an ideal tanking strategy: Enough block to minimize/eliminate incoming penetrating hits and then lots of protection of the appropriate type to reduce the rest of the hits to nothing.
    I've been running and saying that for a while now, but everyone seemed to disregard block as the weakest mitigation stat and Physical Protection was largely ignored.

    On Urdraught:

    Cleave 1.656,43 (Average Hit) 992 (Min Hit) 3.469 (Max Hit)

    Roughly 1k Phys Protection ~ 400 Block

  5. #15
    What I'm about to say is not meant to be contrarian. I'm just throwing some additional food for thought into the mix.

    Protection has a low point of diminishing returns, with a pretty sharp "knee" in the slope. 249 Protection is your "baseline" (from Skill 10 in Head/Minor talismans). 349 Protection grants a 5.4% reduction in damage over baseline. 680 Protection grants a 13.8% reduction in damage over baseline. Translate that into slopes to measure diminishing returns and it works out to:

    * A 40% increase in Prot (349/249) = 5.4% damage reduction
    * A 173% increase in Prot (680/249) = 13.8% damage reduction
    * If the slope were linear between 249-680, you would expect to see a 24% reduction for 680 prot, but in fact you see nearly half that amount. That's a very low point of diminishing returns

    Compare this to Dulfy's measurments on diminishing returns for Crit Rating and Crit Chance (just go look at any of his healing guides). You can see that Crit Rating/Chance scales linearly all the way up to +750 Crit Rating (20% Crit Chance) and even after that point the knee/slope of diminishing returns is pretty gentle.

    What I'm trying to say is that you have to ask yourself "how do I get the most bang for the buck out of every single stat point?" and also "Is Protection giving me _more_ tanking bang for the buck compared to other stats I could be spending my precious limited pool of stat points on"?

    You need to pump points into two different protection stats to have an "all-in-one" gear set for tanking. If you're rolling in excess gear pieces and talisman kits, you can afford to re-gear as needed for each boss's damage type (physical _or_ magical), but most of us aren't rolling in that many extra blues/purples. Do you really want to spend 900 stat points out of a pool of roughly 1900 total just to get 700 magical protection and 700 physical protection for a roughly 14% overall reduction in damage? Is that practical considering that there are many other juicy stats for tanks? Is that practical considering there are ways to slot one passive ability in your build that will provide a nearly constant 6%-7.5% damage ward at all times? Or to literally give yourself 15% more HP to start with, which is effectively a 15% damage ward if your healer can keep topping you off? If you can proc a block 50% of the time with a high enough Block rating, and a block mitigates roughly 30% damage, on average (not even counting its effect to reduce the number of Penetrating hits against you), then that's effectively a 15% damage reduction right there.

    Is Protection bad? No. Is some protection a good "bang for your buck" stat? Yes, to some degree but that degree currently seems pretty low relative to other juicy stats.

    Finally, bear in mind that Funcom is very likely to change these slopes and knees of diminishing returns a _lot_ over the coming year. What's true today won't be true tomorrow.
    Last edited by Yokai; 08-02-2012 at 05:48 PM.
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  6. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by DirewolfX View Post
    Interesting... so I was looking at this and thinking you could potentially facetank Searing Brand (and other large hits) with enough protection of the appropriate type.

    Then I remembered in the first post Warin mentioned that protection has no effect on Penetrating hits, so it got me wondering: Is the mechanic for penetrating hits to simply ignore the relevant protection stat? If most mobs have relatively static protection values, this would account for the DPS perception that Penetrating hits are something like +60% damage (or whatever), but in reality, they might be much more effective against mobs with high protection. It should be easy enough to test in the fight club. Have a heal-tank with high protection vs. a dps spamming a builder. Then swap to remove the protection and compare. If this hypothesis is true, the penetrating hits should do about the same damage, but the normal hits should be much higher vs. no protection.

    If that's true, then Block/Protection might be an ideal tanking strategy: Enough block to minimize/eliminate incoming penetrating hits and then lots of protection of the appropriate type to reduce the rest of the hits to nothing.
    I checked through some older logs and found a penetrating hit from Chtulu guy hitting me for 3.7k with debilitate on, don't know if that would tell you anything compared to non-protection builds.

    My stats are roughly 850 physical protection, 650 magical protection, 800 block and I have no problem facetanking most of the stuff you're supposed to avoid without being in any real danger with a hammer/chaos build. That doesn't mean you should be doing that, but the fact that you're cabable makes you feel like your stats actually hold a signifigance, and I much prefer it to being a giant lifebar with a lucky dice.

  7. #17
    That slope actually sounds correct for protection. You can't look at protection as a linear in terms of absolute damage reduction; you need to look at it as a linear increase in terms of time to live. If protection scaled linearly, it would be far and away the best stat once you stacked enough of it.

    Here's an example:

    Say you have 0% protection and you take a 100 damage hit.
    Now you add 1% protection, you take a 99 damage hit. You reduced incoming damage by 1%.

    Now say you already had 50% protection (big # to illustrate the point better). You are taking 50 damage a hit. You add another 1% protection. You are now taking 49 damage hit. You reduced incoming damage by 2%. And the next point only makes it better.

    If protection scaled linearly in terms of absolute % damage reduced, it would be completely broken and overpowered.

    I suspect they use something similar to the WoW/Diablo formula, which, whether you love or hate WoW, is a mathematically fantastic formula for damage reduction:
    DR = Armor / (Armor + Constant)
    The result is that Armor increases your expected "Time To Live" linearly (the time it would take a mob to kill you if it beat on you with no heals).

    Also, +% max health is only the same as a 15% damage ward if you have a healer with infinite healing power. Effective Health (which is the only thing +% max health increases) is only important to avoid being 1-shot. Beyond that and a little wiggle room, actual mitigation and then avoidance are much more valuable. Protection is the only mitigation stat we have (although we have mitigation passives, such as Minor Ward) and also increases effective health. Block and Glance are partial avoidance (since they are not 100% reliable) and Evade is full avoidance. As a healer, I would much prefer to heal a tank with higher protection and lower max health over one with higher max health and lower protection (all else being equal).

  8. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Yokai View Post
    What I'm about to say is not meant to be contrarian. I'm just throwing some additional food for thought into the mix.

    Protection has a low point of diminishing returns, with a pretty sharp "knee" in the slope. 249 Protection is your "baseline" (from Skill 10 in Head/Minor talismans). 349 Protection grants a 5.4% reduction in damage over baseline. 680 Protection grants a 13.8% reduction in damage over baseline. Translate that into slopes to measure diminishing returns and it works out to:

    * A 40% increase in Prot (349/249) = 5.4% damage reduction
    * A 173% increase in Prot (680/249) = 13.8% damage reduction
    * If the slope were linear between 249-680, you would expect to see a 24% reduction for 680 prot, but in fact you see nearly half that amount. That's a very low point of diminishing returns

    Compare this to Dulfy's measurments on diminishing returns for Crit Rating and Crit Chance (just go look at any of his healing guides). You can see that Crit Rating/Chance scales linearly all the way up to +750 Crit Rating (20% Crit Chance) and even after that point the knee/slope of diminishing returns is pretty gentle.

    What I'm trying to say is that you have to ask yourself "how do I get the most bang for the buck out of every single stat point?" and also "Is Protection giving me _more_ tanking bang for the buck compared to other stats I could be spending my precious limited pool of stat points on"?

    You need to pump points into two different protection stats to have an "all-in-one" gear set for tanking. If you're rolling in excess gear pieces and talisman kits, you can afford to re-gear as needed for each boss's damage type (physical _or_ magical), but most of us aren't rolling in that many extra blues/purples. Do you really want to spend 900 stat points out of a pool of roughly 1900 total just to get 700 magical protection and 700 physical protection for a roughly 14% overall reduction in damage? Is that practical considering that there are many other juicy stats for tanks? Is that practical considering there are ways to slot one passive ability in your build that will provide a nearly constant 6%-7.5% damage ward at all times? Or to literally give yourself 15% more HP to start with, which is effectively a 15% damage ward if your healer can keep topping you off? If you can proc a block 50% of the time with a high enough Block rating, and a block mitigates roughly 30% damage, on average (not even counting its effect to reduce the number of Penetrating hits against you), then that's effectively a 15% damage reduction right there.

    Is Protection bad? No. Is some protection a good "bang for your buck" stat? Yes, to some degree but that degree currently seems pretty low relative to other juicy stats.

    Finally, bear in mind that Funcom is very likely to change these slopes and knees of diminishing returns a _lot_ over the coming year. What's true today won't be true tomorrow.

    Based on my observation the DR of protection is based on what kind of hit you take (just like the in-game explanation suggests). It's % value increases when with your opponent's base attack is higher. Maybe it does have low point of diminishing returns, I don't know, but there is definately more to these stats that has been conclusively provided thus far.

    I'm not one to tinker with numbers, I wouldn't know how to, but I think it would very interesting to see more elaborate testing on this matter.

    Also, I don't think the title is appropriate, nor the approach there seem to be to this debate. If my observations are true then protection/block would give the greatest returns against hard hitting targets, while evade/glance would offer greater returns against packs of low hitting attacks (passive synergies also seem to suggest this).
    Last edited by En-Guard; 08-02-2012 at 06:18 PM. Reason: Edit for typos

  9. #19
    I think Yokai touched on a very important point. The fact that you have to split points into two different stats to get full coverage out of protection. I currently have over 1,100 defense rating, which gives me a 30% chance that enemies will glance me. That works out to be an 18% damage resistance across the board. This is not counting the reduction in critical hits (can't even recall the last time I got hit with a critical on PvE) and the 35% of damage healed on each glance. To get a similar amount of overall damage reduction out of protection you'll need a much higher point investment in BOTH magical and physical protection, basically not possible. Not to mention it doesn't provide additional synergy through AP/SP points (i.e. 40% DR on next hit after evade, Sixth Sense, etc).

    Please let me know if I'm missing something because protection still looks terrible to me.
    Critikal | Templar | Cerberus

  10. #20
    Protection definitely requires you to have some alternate gear sets and know the boss's attacks to get the most out of it. Looking at the numbers above, even if you split protection evenly, you will come out roughly on par with defense and ahead of block. If you know to specialize for a boss, you will come out ahead of everything.

    And even if avoidance is slightly ahead in terms of value, protection makes up for it in consistency. Spike damage kills tanks more frequently than pure damage. If you're all glance and evade and you eat a Searing Brand to the face without glancing or evading, you go splat. If you've pumped up protection, you stand a good chance of living.

    Ultimately, I think you want a little balance in there as well. You definitely want access to some glance and evade for procs or NM mobs that are 'weak' to glances/evades (i.e. Hell Raised NM getting a debuff when you evade).

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