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Thread: Tanking: Protection (Phys/Mag) vs Mitigation (Evade/Glance/Evade)

  1. #21
    It's fine Protection has a diminishing return. Conceptually you should look to it like Satrina described, it's rather dated mechanics and the numbers are very much often since this was for another game, but the concept is there: http://evilempireguild.org/guides/acstamina.php

    This link specifically explains why "physical protection" (armor) needs to have a diminishing return, but also why it's okay (and what Direwolf was attempting to explain): http://evilempireguild.org/guides/diminishmath.php
    Last edited by torch068; 08-02-2012 at 09:21 PM.

  2. #22
    Isn't that an ancient post from the WoW warrior forums? lol

    I tried to explain the basic concept there above without going into too much detail.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by DirewolfX View Post
    Looking at the numbers above, even if you split protection evenly, you will come out roughly on par with defense and ahead of block.
    The problem with this is that it appears protection suffers from DR, whereas defense doesn't. I've gone back through my combat logs and every encounter I looked at puts me between 35% to 40% of hits glanced, which is consistent with my 1,100-1,300 defense rating (1,300/44 = 29%) plus Shadow Play (10% defense with 80% uptime). There appears to be no DR on defense, at least not at 1,300. 30% defense equals 18% damage reduction, not accounting for other factors (critical hits, heal on glance). It's simply not possible to get that kind of mitigation through protection. A similar investment in physical/magical protection (i.e. 650 on each) will net you 12% damage reduction, with even less returns as you get better gear or stack only one type.
    Last edited by Krytical; 08-02-2012 at 08:57 PM.
    Critikal | Templar | Cerberus

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by DirewolfX View Post
    Isn't that an ancient post from the WoW warrior forums? lol

    I tried to explain the basic concept there above without going into too much detail.
    It's from Satrina and it was written for vanilla WoW. She was popular make of a bunch of mods and tanking theorycraft. (Satrina's Buff Mod rings a bell?)

    But yes, I linked it because she's very good at articulating concepts. This is like tanking 101 with concepts here. And she was basically the main genesis of "time to live" concept and what we also know as "effective health".

  5. #25
    650 each is actually ~900 protection; you get 249 base from your talisman skills. The DR numbers quoted above are relative to 249 as 0%. 900 protection is probably over 15% at least, possibly more. And you can still get the bonus of 10% glance from Shadow Play even with protection rating and not defense rating.

    At the very least, this data gives some strong incentive to run protection rating passives (i.e. Hardcase). From the #s above, that's probably like 6% reduced damage across the board; not too shabby.

  6. #26
    I honestly wouldn't even bother much with magical protection, it's far more niche and most magical things can be manually (active dodge, dash) avoided.

    My plans are to run defense, block and physical protection. Evasion is nice, but it's a bit spikier. Block primarily to just push penetrates off, I believe Escalith numbers showing around 330-400 range to be a huge gain, then the rest into physical protection and defense.

    Gearwise, with the abundance of 10.2 helms available, I think that's the one item I'll leave to be last for my custom upgrade. I've already got 10.2 items for magical protection, physical protection, block and defense.

    My first custom item was my chaos weapon, since it was mandatory and my second was a minor talisman -- because epic Ablation signets are REALLY expensive.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Warin View Post
    Updated OP again now, temporary conclusion too. If you know what you're fighting Protection stats is HAWT! ;D
    Thanks for taking the initiative and giving us some quantifiable data to see instead of all my empirical evidence. Also thanks for the shout out

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Yokai View Post
    What I'm about to say is not meant to be contrarian. I'm just throwing some additional food for thought into the mix.

    Protection has a low point of diminishing returns, with a pretty sharp "knee" in the slope. 249 Protection is your "baseline" (from Skill 10 in Head/Minor talismans). 349 Protection grants a 5.4% reduction in damage over baseline. 680 Protection grants a 13.8% reduction in damage over baseline. Translate that into slopes to measure diminishing returns and it works out to:

    * A 40% increase in Prot (349/249) = 5.4% damage reduction
    * A 173% increase in Prot (680/249) = 13.8% damage reduction
    * If the slope were linear between 249-680, you would expect to see a 24% reduction for 680 prot, but in fact you see nearly half that amount. That's a very low point of diminishing returns

    Compare this to Dulfy's measurments on diminishing returns for Crit Rating and Crit Chance (just go look at any of his healing guides). You can see that Crit Rating/Chance scales linearly all the way up to +750 Crit Rating (20% Crit Chance) and even after that point the knee/slope of diminishing returns is pretty gentle.

    What I'm trying to say is that you have to ask yourself "how do I get the most bang for the buck out of every single stat point?" and also "Is Protection giving me _more_ tanking bang for the buck compared to other stats I could be spending my precious limited pool of stat points on"?

    You need to pump points into two different protection stats to have an "all-in-one" gear set for tanking. If you're rolling in excess gear pieces and talisman kits, you can afford to re-gear as needed for each boss's damage type (physical _or_ magical), but most of us aren't rolling in that many extra blues/purples. Do you really want to spend 900 stat points out of a pool of roughly 1900 total just to get 700 magical protection and 700 physical protection for a roughly 14% overall reduction in damage? Is that practical considering that there are many other juicy stats for tanks? Is that practical considering there are ways to slot one passive ability in your build that will provide a nearly constant 6%-7.5% damage ward at all times? Or to literally give yourself 15% more HP to start with, which is effectively a 15% damage ward if your healer can keep topping you off? If you can proc a block 50% of the time with a high enough Block rating, and a block mitigates roughly 30% damage, on average (not even counting its effect to reduce the number of Penetrating hits against you), then that's effectively a 15% damage reduction right there.

    Is Protection bad? No. Is some protection a good "bang for your buck" stat? Yes, to some degree but that degree currently seems pretty low relative to other juicy stats.

    Finally, bear in mind that Funcom is very likely to change these slopes and knees of diminishing returns a _lot_ over the coming year. What's true today won't be true tomorrow.
    In short, yes you don want to get your prot to 900 and then focus a secondary stat like defense. I know its easy to look at slopes and graphs and think that theory crafting in this game is the same as wow. The thing is, we had the algorithms worked out for wow, yet here we have absolutely no idea on how it truly works. Sometimes you hit a knee and then low returns for a while till you hit a breakpoint. The problem is there isnt any accurate simulations being developed at this time to allow us to model this.

    My peers and I have all found that about 1k prot is the "sweet spot" after witch it is mostly more beneficial to focus defense, unless you glyph hit as well. In that case you would want to stack block. So I guess the basic breakdown is 1k prot no matter what, and then if you want hit you stack block, if not that extra 300 can make defense >= block.

    If you and your partner would be so kind as to develop simulations for some bosses in NM that would allow us to take this beyond just speculation. I think we need to create a repository for people to store their ACT parses so that we can have a LOT of data to manipulate.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by torch068 View Post
    I honestly wouldn't even bother much with magical protection, it's far more niche and most magical things can be manually (active dodge, dash) avoided.

    My plans are to run defense, block and physical protection. Evasion is nice, but it's a bit spikier. Block primarily to just push penetrates off, I believe Escalith numbers showing around 330-400 range to be a huge gain, then the rest into physical protection and defense.

    Gearwise, with the abundance of 10.2 helms available, I think that's the one item I'll leave to be last for my custom upgrade. I've already got 10.2 items for magical protection, physical protection, block and defense.

    My first custom item was my chaos weapon, since it was mandatory and my second was a minor talisman -- because epic Ablation signets are REALLY expensive.
    ATT I fully agree with this. In the future we may see some more magic heavy bosses, but right now that is not the case.
    Last edited by Rekreant; 08-02-2012 at 09:58 PM.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Yokai View Post
    * A 40% increase in Prot (349/249) = 5.4% damage reduction
    * A 173% increase in Prot (680/249) = 13.8% damage reduction
    * If the slope were linear between 249-680, you would expect to see a 24% reduction for 680 prot, but in fact you see nearly half that amount. That's a very low point of diminishing returns
    IMO you should always compare what you get per rating instead of amount of % increase that you need to get more DR. Rating is how we interact with all theese secondary stats, and adequatly shows our investment into it.
    It doesn't have to be linear but if we can find how much DR we get forexample per 100 point investment, that's very valuable for anyone looking to slot protection.

    I believe much of the problems atm is cause we don't have a base value of 0 to compare it to, and thus haven't found the right forumula. I'll try to make a lvl 0 alt and parse the same mobs to give us a valid starting point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yokai View Post
    You need to pump points into two different protection stats to have an "all-in-one" gear set for tanking. If you're rolling in excess gear pieces and talisman kits, you can afford to re-gear as needed for each boss's damage type (physical _or_ magical), but most of us aren't rolling in that many extra blues/purples. Do you really want to spend 900 stat points out of a pool of roughly 1900 total just to get 700 magical protection and 700 physical protection for a roughly 14% overall reduction in damage? Is that practical considering that there are many other juicy stats for tanks? Is that practical considering there are ways to slot one passive ability in your build that will provide a nearly constant 6%-7.5% damage ward at all times? Or to literally give yourself 15% more HP to start with, which is effectively a 15% damage ward if your healer can keep topping you off? If you can proc a block 50% of the time with a high enough Block rating, and a block mitigates roughly 30% damage, on average (not even counting its effect to reduce the number of Penetrating hits against you), then that's effectively a 15% damage reduction right there.
    I wouldn't gear for BOTH physical and magical prot, I have a set of each and only intend to use it for boss fights where I know the boss is only or mostly using one kind of damage type. Like Ur-Draug, Dr Klein etc.

    Also by the looks of things, Hardcase with +150 PhysProt and MagProt is now very comparable if not better than Turbulence(150 Evade Rating).

    Lets compare block and physical protection like above, 400 Phys.Prot(+249 base) gives you 12% Damage reduction increase compared to 249 base. 400 Block gives you also gives you 12,1% block. If you have a hammer equipped this gives you 4.83% Damage reduction against attacks that can be blocked.
    It's pretty clear here that you get a substantial bonus in raw Damage Reduction compared to what you give up, block passive procs, and penetration reduction.


    Quote Originally Posted by Yokai View Post
    Finally, bear in mind that Funcom is very likely to change these slopes and knees of diminishing returns a _lot_ over the coming year. What's true today won't be true tomorrow.
    Very true, but atleast the stats are alot more balance than originally portraied by the end of beta.
    Christopher "Warin" Quinn Templar - Arcadia - Tank
    Nine Swords
    Now celebrating 1k Bullions spent on tank gear, mostly PUGing

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