Page 4 of 6 FirstFirst ... 23456 LastLast
Results 31 to 40 of 55

Thread: What is wrong with Hit rating in PvP?

  1. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Sawo
    But, I understand that when you go 100%, you Crit nullifies Glance. But in practise, Hit Rating is still the thing to avoid Glances, that hasnt change. Where we get back to the topic about Hit being waste of budget. What imo is not. I pointed earlier out that me being a Healer, with hefty amount of Defence Rating, and I know when there is High Crit chance with Woodcutter and 0 Hit player shooting me. With builders these players make me Heal more (triggering Riposte, and giving them hefty amount of Debuffs), but their bursts hurt.
    While hit will decrease glances against you, it will not decrease the enemy critical penalty. In other words the dps is left with 2 choices :
    _Stack some hit to decrease your glance from 25% to 15% (those are imaginary numbers) while having 15% critical chance against you (he has 25% chance -10% penalty from your defense)
    _Stack crit instead of hit. His critical chance jumps to 35%. He will therefore have 25% critical chance against you after counting your critical penalty, greatly helping his burst damage against you, versus hit only helping landing more normal hits; it remains to be tested however if your glance chance will also be modified; if the formula really is [Glance chance + Critical chance = 1 - Normal hit chance], it will definitely be lower than 25% too.

    Overall spending 1 point in crit nets a bigger return in all glance outcome than 1 point in hit, period.

    While results with > 100% crit seem to favor crit, I would be much more interested in 90% crit vs 90% glance results (or 50% vs 50%). If it works like pen vs block, equal percentages would likely introduce massive amounts of normal hits with only few crits and glances (10% ?).

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir-Percival
    582 crit power total
    679 pen total
    I would rather have 296 cp and 303 crit rating than 582 cp. That's 14% more crit multiplier vs ~7% more crit chance if you already have a lot of crit, I would still take more crit chance anyday.
    Last edited by Uhane; 02-16-2017 at 04:02 PM.

  2. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir-Percival View Post
    If I change one of the 100% crit power minor talismans, and split it 50/50 crit power/pen, I end up with:
    582 crit power total
    679 pen total
    Is this change sufficient?
    Yeah that's a very nice .5 setup, i used the same when I was .5 .

  3. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Uhane View Post
    While results with > 100% crit seem to favor crit, I would be much more interested in 90% crit vs 90% glance results (or 50% vs 50%). If it works like pen vs block, equal percentages would likely introduce massive amounts of normal hits with only few crits and glances (10% ?).
    You will have 90-penalty% crit and others hits will glance, but no normal hits.

  4. #34
    I went back to the beginning of this thread, here is a summary of what I have identified as interesting/important arguments for or against Hit rating.



    Post #4, for Hit:
    Quote Originally Posted by Sawo View Post
    0 Hit makes you sucking Weakened states against Nergal and Contradiction users, debuffing your ability to do damage and Hit further. Having 0 Hit can give you both Exposed and Debilitate effect pretty fast (seen this as Nergal user with high Def/Block), and both fully stacked... you have 25% chance to Glance (according PvP suit debuff states), addition to your 0 Hit Chance. So, imo, Hit is really worth it.


    Post #11, against Hit:
    Quote Originally Posted by Dorito360Noscope View Post
    We did some test with bernyy :
    Bernyy post

    force crit < force glance (art of war)
    100% crit chance > 100% glance

    So the best way to counter glance is a high crit chance build, like hammer/elem with blaze, ar/hammer, hammer/elem with thor hammer force crit, blood/hammer, Elem/blood etc ...
    Hit rating is good for sustained, which is useless in pvp.


    Post #19:
    Quote Originally Posted by Foksie View Post
    You would need 222 Hit rating to never glance against a 0 Defense rating target.
    Or rather, ( Def - Hit ) < -222 for no glances.


    Post #20, against Hit:
    Quote Originally Posted by Dorito360Noscope View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir-Percival View Post
    I would like to see a consensus: Is hit rating in PvP worth it or not?
    No, you will get better results with 0 hit and high Crit chance /penetration / crit power, because you will get high burst dps, which is the most important thing in PvP.


    Post #21, for Hit:
    Quote Originally Posted by Sawo View Post
    But, I understand that when you go 100%, you Crit nullifies Glance. But in practise, Hit Rating is still the thing to avoid Glances, that hasnt change. Where we get back to the topic about Hit being waste of budget. What imo is not. I pointed earlier out that me being a Healer, with hefty amount of Defence Rating, and I know when there is High Crit chance with Woodcutter and 0 Hit player shooting me. With builders these players make me Heal more (triggering Riposte, and giving them hefty amount of Debuffs), but their bursts hurt.


    Post #24:
    Quote Originally Posted by Myndr View Post
    DO NOT put hit with Coup de Grace

    ===================
    Only a few individuals have offered their opinions on this topic, but I see more arguments against Hit than for Hit.
    We have been discussing general DPS stats that works for most situations, and most of you argue against Hit for this purpose. But are there any circumstances in PvP that requires Hit rating? Maybe when attacking those annoying glancetanks?
    Last edited by Sir-Percival; 02-21-2017 at 02:12 AM. Reason: colors

  5. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Uhane View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir-Percival View Post
    582 crit power total
    679 pen total
    I would rather have 296 cp and 303 crit rating than 582 cp. That's 14% more crit multiplier vs ~7% more crit chance if you already have a lot of crit, I would still take more crit chance anyday.
    You all agree that high burst power is important, does not that mean that high Crit Power is necessary? If I only go with the CP from the Woodcutter (296), my Crit hits does less damage than Pen hits.
    How can I achieve high burst power with just 296 CP?

    I have a purple Laceration on the head which helps, but it has downtime.



    I have several places seen mention of 100% Crit chance. Is this a realistic number or just theoretical? I tested in tswcalc, if I spend my entire .5 glyph budget on Crit rating (no Woodcutter) I get only 49.1 Crit chance, add a QL10 consumable and it's 49.9%. A Brutal augment can add a few percent, and Deadly Aim can add additional 40 or 45%. But DA is rarely used in PvP, and even when it is, it has a long cd. And I don't think anyone are recommending to spend ALL of their glyph budget on Crit rating.

  6. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir-Percival View Post
    Only a few individuals have offered their opinions on this topic, but I see more arguments against Hit than for Hit.
    We have been discussing general DPS stats that works for most situations, and most of you argue against Hit for this purpose. But are there any circumstances in PvP that requires Hit rating? Maybe when attacking those annoying glancetanks?
    Well, it depends a lot on you build and what you want to achieve (what role you want to play) with that build.
    Dedicated build for killing DPS or killing tanks ... or killing healers or good in 1 vs 1 or good in 1 vs 3 or etc etc etc may require different use of Hit...
    Make Love(craft), not War(craft) !

    Ha Ha ! I m a PvPer...

    Vous avez plus de 25 ans ? Voulez rejoindre une cabale cool mais bon niveau ?
    Venez faire un tour chez R.E.D ! (anciennement Le Parkzheimer Club)

  7. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir-Percival View Post
    You all agree that high burst power is important, does not that mean that high Crit Power is necessary? If I only go with the CP from the Woodcutter (296), my Crit hits does less damage than Pen hits.
    How can I achieve high burst power with just 296 CP?

    I have a purple Laceration on the head which helps, but it has downtime.

    I have several places seen mention of 100% Crit chance. Is this a realistic number or just theoretical?.
    *Its all about your build tbh. Proc passives/high CR/WC wrath/lac/burst builder or bloodline. Bloodline for example gives 4 chances to crit per use - with focused and good crit rating you WILL crit keeping procs moving and lac uptime at around 98%.

    *Use ele forced, iron maiden, live wire, one in the chamber, etc

    *molten steel, CtP, blaze, etc amplify C or P chances and trigger proc passives

    *debil and corrupt both weaken healers a lot

    Are you a lumie?
    Happy Hunting!

    Myndr
    Illuminati PvP Healer

  8. #38
    The 100% crit thing refers to builds that have certain abilities. Hard Reset in Elemental is 100% crit by default. Anima charge with the High Voltage passive will guarantee your next elemental consumer will crit. Blaze with its passive that gives 40% crit on afflicted targets. Throwing a blaze on EF will mean you have 60% crit chance not counting glyphed crit. You can easily get 30%-35% crit from glyphing and still have room for pen. So you're at 90-95%. Add in one of the passives that provide 10% minor crit chance such as Rapid Getaway (not recommended) or Death Density, and you can reliably get 100% crit on your Blaze every time elemental force is up . Tack on the crit-based procs and you can do pretty good burst. Add in the (OP) NM raid head and every 100% crit blaze has a 20% chance of doing double-damage.

    And as others noted, Molten Steel is a popular consumer because of its high damage and higher-than-average crit chance as well -- 30% crit, 30% glphyed crit, 20% EF, and Death Density gives you about 90% crit chance on every molten steel (under EF).

    ETA: Heck, I forgot to add Augments into the calculations, which can give 5% or 7.5% to crit rating for a specific ability. So you can easily manage 100% crit for those abilities that have crit boosts like Blaze or Molten Steel.
    Last edited by Rananar; 02-17-2017 at 03:26 PM.

  9. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Dorito360Noscope View Post
    Because most of groups run with 4k hp as dps.
    So? You can get 4k HP and 6250 AR with 1 minor HP talisman and 2 violence. Use Vigour is a waste because you don't really get any more stats than using other combos AND you will not be able to run with no HP if you want to.

  10. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by KemosabeTBC View Post
    So? You can get 4k HP and 6250 AR with 1 minor HP talisman and 2 violence. Use Vigour is a waste because you don't really get any more stats than using other combos AND you will not be able to run with no HP if you want to.
    Not the right post to talk about PvE. Though dorito seems to be right.

    full Q11, violence x2 + minor hp + AR anima = 6093AR + 3920HP
    full Q11, vigour x2 + HP anima = 6235AR + 3998HP

    It's not a surprise since a Q11 health minor = 1850HP or 664AR while a purple signet = 494HP or 141AR, which means that you're only getting 2.7861HP per AR spent if you take the HP on the minor while getting 3.5035HP per AR spent if you take the HP on the signets.

    So IF you're aiming at 4k HP AND IF you have the means to afford the best opti, the violence option is a pure loss. Although, only the top raiding players will bother with multiple custom talismans.
    Last edited by JackNightmare; 02-17-2017 at 12:51 PM.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •