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SubLiminal

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Quote:
Originally Posted by blur View Post
But I guess it does beg the question of whether you find it more realistic for a katana or a set of SWAT team armour to pop out of a sewer rat's arse when you kill it... or whether you buy it off someone. And, if you buy it... what money are you buying it with? And, if you're happy buying this stuff off NPCs, what's the difference between an NPC and a crafter? See, I'm not sure it's as simple as saying this game can't, or shouldn't, have crafting. Because, to use that example I just gave, I'd personally rather buy equipment off real people, rather than have it, rather unrealistically, fly out of some animals butt when I kill it. That's just stupid, IMHO.
1) It depends on how big the rat is. =p
2) The upside to paying NPC's is that you remove that currency from the economy. People starting the game when it first comes out don't notice how important this is, but later in the game, newbies get raped by inflation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yume View Post
Now THAT is more like it! Thanks Orion. This is the thinking-outside-the-MMO-cliche-box I love to see. This is what I'm talking about, Blur. A game economy that isn't like every single other MMO on the market. Something different. It drives me frigging nuts that people want to see the same system from EQ and WoW and every other MMO in TSW. Don't be afraid of the unfamiliar!
That really isn't any different than EQ's system. As Orion explained it, the only difference is that crafting would be more akin to WoW's, while trade would be reminiscient of EQ pre-Luclin.
Quote:
Which is really sad -- MMOs should be about stories and characters and atmosphere and fun gameplay, not about getting more stuff and making more gold. That's at the heart of my ranting, so I hope that sheds some light on my reaction to ingame economy for TSW.

Like I said, I'm happy if people enjoy crafting and grinding materials. Whatever floats your boat. But I don't think it must be in TSW for the game to work. That's all I'm saying.
Well, MMO's are generally about group play moreso than narrative. Similar to other group play systems (sports, for example), people expect some kind of prize for their effort. It is competitive (to varying degrees) and cooperative, but the MMO definitely relinquishes narrating a story to the back seat, if not ignoring it entirely. Fun gameplay doesn't necessarily disinclude fun loot, as well. Getting loot can be, and often is, fun. I honestly don't think you can have MMO's have stories as compelling as single player games, just because of the nature of the genre. But, then again, I'm open to being pleasantly surprised. Maybe they just need better writers.

Kind of a sidetrack, but this brings to mind something else I've had rattling about. I would love to see breath taking cinematic moments and I don't see why they can't be accomplished with instancing. I'm thinking of stuff similar to Shadow of the Colossus, probably one of the few games to come very close to approaching art, if not jumping that line entirely. I want to come to the end of a quest series and a cutscene happens in which I am completely stunned by it. I guess this is where storytelling comes in, too, but I'm thinking more along the lines of visual beauty and such (high polygon counts don't mean beautiful scenes).

SubLiminal

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Quote:
Originally Posted by blur View Post
But I guess it does beg the question of whether you find it more realistic for a katana or a set of SWAT team armour to pop out of a sewer rat's arse when you kill it... or whether you buy it off someone. And, if you buy it... what money are you buying it with? And, if you're happy buying this stuff off NPCs, what's the difference between an NPC and a crafter? See, I'm not sure it's as simple as saying this game can't, or shouldn't, have crafting. Because, to use that example I just gave, I'd personally rather buy equipment off real people, rather than have it, rather unrealistically, fly out of some animals butt when I kill it. That's just stupid, IMHO.
1) It depends on how big the rat is. =p
2) The upside to paying NPC's is that you remove that currency from the economy. People starting the game when it first comes out don't notice how important this is, but later in the game, newbies get raped by inflation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yume View Post
Now THAT is more like it! Thanks Orion. This is the thinking-outside-the-MMO-cliche-box I love to see. This is what I'm talking about, Blur. A game economy that isn't like every single other MMO on the market. Something different. It drives me frigging nuts that people want to see the same system from EQ and WoW and every other MMO in TSW. Don't be afraid of the unfamiliar!
That really isn't any different than EQ's system. As Orion explained it, the only difference is that crafting would be more akin to WoW's, while trade would be reminiscient of EQ pre-Luclin.
Quote:
Which is really sad -- MMOs should be about stories and characters and atmosphere and fun gameplay, not about getting more stuff and making more gold. That's at the heart of my ranting, so I hope that sheds some light on my reaction to ingame economy for TSW.

Like I said, I'm happy if people enjoy crafting and grinding materials. Whatever floats your boat. But I don't think it must be in TSW for the game to work. That's all I'm saying.
Well, MMO's are generally about group play moreso than narrative. Similar to other group play systems (sports, for example), people expect some kind of prize for their effort. It is competitive (to varying degrees) and cooperative, but the MMO definitely relinquishes narrating a story to the back seat, if not ignoring it entirely. Fun gameplay doesn't necessarily disinclude fun loot, as well. Getting loot can be, and often is, fun. I honestly don't think you can have MMO's have stories as compelling as single player games, just because of the nature of the genre. But, then again, I'm open to being pleasantly surprised. Maybe they just need better writers.

Kind of a sidetrack, but this brings to mind something else I've had rattling about. I would love to see breath taking cinematic moments and I don't see why they can't be accomplished with instancing. I'm thinking of stuff similar to Shadow of the Colossus, probably one of the few games to come very close to approaching art, if not jumping that line entirely. I want to come to the end of a quest series and a cutscene happens in which I am completely stunned by it. I guess this is where storytelling comes in, too, but I'm thinking more along the lines of visual beauty and such (high polygon counts don't mean beautiful scenes).

SubLiminal

SubLiminal's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by blur View Post
But I guess it does beg the question of whether you find it more realistic for a katana or a set of SWAT team armour to pop out of a sewer rat's arse when you kill it... or whether you buy it off someone. And, if you buy it... what money are you buying it with? And, if you're happy buying this stuff off NPCs, what's the difference between an NPC and a crafter? See, I'm not sure it's as simple as saying this game can't, or shouldn't, have crafting. Because, to use that example I just gave, I'd personally rather buy equipment off real people, rather than have it, rather unrealistically, fly out of some animals butt when I kill it. That's just stupid, IMHO.
1) It depends on how big the rat is. =p
2) The upside to paying NPC's is that you remove that currency from the economy. People starting the game when it first comes out don't notice how important this is, but later in the game, newbies get raped by inflation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yume View Post
Now THAT is more like it! Thanks Orion. This is the thinking-outside-the-MMO-cliche-box I love to see. This is what I'm talking about, Blur. A game economy that isn't like every single other MMO on the market. Something different. It drives me frigging nuts that people want to see the same system from EQ and WoW and every other MMO in TSW. Don't be afraid of the unfamiliar!
That really isn't any different than EQ's system. As Orion explained it, the only difference is that crafting would be more akin to WoW's, while trade would be reminiscient of EQ pre-Luclin.
Quote:
Which is really sad -- MMOs should be about stories and characters and atmosphere and fun gameplay, not about getting more stuff and making more gold. That's at the heart of my ranting, so I hope that sheds some light on my reaction to ingame economy for TSW.

Like I said, I'm happy if people enjoy crafting and grinding materials. Whatever floats your boat. But I don't think it must be in TSW for the game to work. That's all I'm saying.
Well, MMO's are generally about group play moreso than narrative. Similar to other group play systems (sports, for example), people expect some kind of prize for their effort. It is competitive (to varying degrees) and cooperative, but the MMO definitely relinquishes narrating a story to the back seat, if not ignoring it entirely. Fun gameplay doesn't necessarily disinclude fun loot, as well. Getting loot can be, and often is, fun. I honestly don't think you can have MMO's have stories as compelling as single player games, just because of the nature of the genre. But, then again, I'm open to being pleasantly surprised. Maybe they just need better writers.

Kind of a sidetrack, but this brings to mind something else I've had rattling about. I would love to see breath taking cinematic moments and I don't see why they can't be accomplished with instancing. I'm thinking of stuff similar to Shadow of the Colossus, probably one of the few games to come very close to approaching art, if not jumping that line entirely. I want to come to the end of a quest series and a cutscene happens in which I am completely stunned by it. I guess this is where storytelling comes in, too, but I'm thinking more along the lines of visual beauty and such (high polygon counts don't mean beautiful scenes).

Yume

Quote:
Originally Posted by Orion View Post
once again... /agree
/agree with you too, and I agree with everyone else about a TSW economy, now that I've read all the posts properly and feel a bit foolish for my knee-jerk anti-economy rant. Heh. So *cough* I do want to see an economy in TSW, I just want it to be appropriate is all. I'd hate to see what I see in WoW and every other MMO, players named Cheezpwn and Sailormoon spamming the trade channel, and the Auction House always full of people only interested in getting more stuff and making more money. That's all I'm really against when it comes to ingame economies, and I guess those players can't be avoided in MMOs unfortunately.

Matrix Online has a cool idea for merchants, street dealers sitting on the pavement with their goods lined up on a blanket.

Yume

Quote:
Originally Posted by Orion View Post
once again... /agree
/agree with you too, and I agree with everyone else about a TSW economy, now that I've read all the posts properly and feel a bit foolish for my knee-jerk anti-economy rant. Heh. So *cough* I do want to see an economy in TSW, I just want it to be appropriate is all. I'd hate to see what I see in WoW and every other MMO, players named Cheezpwn and Sailormoon spamming the trade channel, and the Auction House always full of people only interested in getting more stuff and making more money. That's all I'm really against when it comes to ingame economies, and I guess those players can't be avoided in MMOs unfortunately.

Matrix Online has a cool idea for merchants, street dealers sitting on the pavement with their goods lined up on a blanket.

Yume

Quote:
Originally Posted by Orion View Post
once again... /agree
/agree with you too, and I agree with everyone else about a TSW economy, now that I've read all the posts properly and feel a bit foolish for my knee-jerk anti-economy rant. Heh. So *cough* I do want to see an economy in TSW, I just want it to be appropriate is all. I'd hate to see what I see in WoW and every other MMO, players named Cheezpwn and Sailormoon spamming the trade channel, and the Auction House always full of people only interested in getting more stuff and making more money. That's all I'm really against when it comes to ingame economies, and I guess those players can't be avoided in MMOs unfortunately.

Matrix Online has a cool idea for merchants, street dealers sitting on the pavement with their goods lined up on a blanket.

Orion

Orion's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yume View Post
/agree with you too, now that I've read all the posts properly and feel a bit foolish for my knee-jerk anti-economy rant.

Didn't Matrix Online have a cool idea for merchants, sitting on the street with their goods lined up on a blanket?
never played MO, but that doesn't seem bad. I am thinking more *holds open trench coat, displaying 20 watches* kind of selling. Also, NPC's do provide a money dump, which helps. Where my idea differs I believe is that the items are small and limited on what can be crafted. (Like watches!). Also, in EQ pre-luclin, they congregated in cities. I would like to avoid that. While that was great and I enjoyed it, how about having a message system instead. You put up a request for an item on the internet and arrange a meeting? Or you just ask people (or they offer) as you pass by them or are in group? I dunno, trying to think of ways to break the mold...

Orion

Orion's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yume View Post
/agree with you too, now that I've read all the posts properly and feel a bit foolish for my knee-jerk anti-economy rant.

Didn't Matrix Online have a cool idea for merchants, sitting on the street with their goods lined up on a blanket?
never played MO, but that doesn't seem bad. I am thinking more *holds open trench coat, displaying 20 watches* kind of selling. Also, NPC's do provide a money dump, which helps. Where my idea differs I believe is that the items are small and limited on what can be crafted. (Like watches!). Also, in EQ pre-luclin, they congregated in cities. I would like to avoid that. While that was great and I enjoyed it, how about having a message system instead. You put up a request for an item on the internet and arrange a meeting? Or you just ask people (or they offer) as you pass by them or are in group? I dunno, trying to think of ways to break the mold...

Orion

Orion's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yume View Post
/agree with you too, now that I've read all the posts properly and feel a bit foolish for my knee-jerk anti-economy rant.

Didn't Matrix Online have a cool idea for merchants, sitting on the street with their goods lined up on a blanket?
never played MO, but that doesn't seem bad. I am thinking more *holds open trench coat, displaying 20 watches* kind of selling. Also, NPC's do provide a money dump, which helps. Where my idea differs I believe is that the items are small and limited on what can be crafted. (Like watches!). Also, in EQ pre-luclin, they congregated in cities. I would like to avoid that. While that was great and I enjoyed it, how about having a message system instead. You put up a request for an item on the internet and arrange a meeting? Or you just ask people (or they offer) as you pass by them or are in group? I dunno, trying to think of ways to break the mold...

SubLiminal

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Orion View Post
never played MO, but that doesn't seem bad. I am thinking more *holds open trench coat, displaying 20 watches* kind of selling. Also, NPC's do provide a money dump, which helps. Where my idea differs I believe is that the items are small and limited on what can be crafted. (Like watches!). Also, in EQ pre-luclin, they congregated in cities. I would like to avoid that. While that was great and I enjoyed it, how about having a message system instead. You put up a request for an item on the internet and arrange a meeting? Or you just ask people (or they offer) as you pass by them or are in group? I dunno, trying to think of ways to break the mold...
Nah, that must have only been your server. On my server the Commonlands tunnel was the market center so goods and evils could trade. But, anyway, I like the idea of having naturally occurring market hubs.
 

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