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Formorian

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amica View Post
If we don't like 3 games that have negligible differences then MMOs aren't for us? You seem to forget that there were many MMOs before WoW, and they did just fine. WoW just turned a niche genre into something more accessible. It took the same sort of gameplay as its predecessors and made some tweaks that gave it its own flavor. Pair that with the rabid love many gamers had for Warcraft 3, and it's no wonder the game took off. The point I'm trying to make? Well Funcom doesn't want to do PvP gear the same as WoToRift, so they aren't going to. You claim grinding out multiple sets of gear is no fun, but you would have to do so for PvP anyways. By having a PvP stat, that would be twice as much gear to grind.

If you don't like that idea, then TSW may not be your type of game. Not being facetious, I'm just saying that this game is so different from WoW that treating it like WoW just isn't feasible.
Again you just aren't reading my sugestion. I'm NOT advocating for a PvP stat. Quite the oposite. So long as there is vertical progression there will be inbalance in how we get gear. You don't need to collect both a PvP and PvE set only one or the other depending on what you enjoy doing. That means 1 set of gear obtained by completing the type of content you enjoy in order to complete higher level content of the same type you enjoy.

You are corect if this game has no vertical progression it will not be the game for me. Same as if I have to PvE in order to be competitive in PvP I will simply /facepalm and walk away.

Nemeros

Quote:
Originally Posted by Formorian View Post
They are the 3 biggest MMOs out there. I think striving to do nothing like them would be a mistake. They should be the minimum standard and then innovate from there. Repeating the same mistakes that WoW did 7 years ago is not innovation it's shooting yourself in the foot.
the problem is: wow did no innovation at all. Wow copied some good thing from other games. that's it.

Did you ever played to : ShadowBane, Eve online, City of heroes, Star wars galaxy (pre-nge), UO, AO, Neocron ...? those games bringed innovation.

Quote:
Progression can't just be lateral in has to be vertical. So let's say I have a shotgun build. I really like using my shotgun now a new tier/expansion comes out and all I get is the option to turn in my shot gun and get... a sword? or now use magic? But what if I liked my shotgun build? Lateral progression doesn't really offer me anything, I want vertical progression. I want a better shotgun, a cooler looking one or one that at least makes a louder sound effect when I shoot it.
lateral progession offer you diversity. Things that you wasn't able to do with with your full specific shotgun build can now be done.

Looks towards GW, Eve or City of heroes for a good exemple.

JerryC

JerryC's Avatar
They aren't the 3 biggest mmos, if you exclude all the face book and browser games and only count games with a sub rather than so called f2p it goes

Wow
Aion
Torcraft
Eve
Rift

Lordjay

Quote:
Originally Posted by Formorian View Post
The major problem I see is in the release of new content. Now if TSW is just never going to have new content then that's a whole other can of worms. At some point you have to release new content with some sort of carrot for players to complete it. What will the carrot be in TSW if it's not better gear?

Unfortunately I don't see how they are going to make sure that the various tiers of content remain perfectly balanced. It's a nice idea, but better companies with more resources failed at this type of execution.

Not having a PvP stat means that players can use PvE and PvP gear interchangeably, which BTW works fine in SWTOR up until level 50. This means that players will acquire their gear in whatever manner is the easiest. I would say it's almost impossible to balance the ease/rate of acquiring PvP and PvE gear so that they are perfectly the same.

The purpose of looking at other MMO games is to learn from their mistakes and not repeat them. Vanilla WoW did not have a PvP stat and it was a major failure. It was a nice idea, but human nature is not what we always wish it was.

I really like the idea of a level-less system it sounds a lot like the result will be similar to SWTOR’s bolster mechanic which is awesome. My concern is what will keep me coming back to the game? How will I progress my character? Or will there just not be character progression?
There is no need for different pve and pvp gear in TSW first of all,its all about HOW you mix up your skills that will make the biggest difference.

And what about End game and developing you charactor further?
Let me quote myself:

TSW doesn't really have "End Game" per se,its just a term used to define certain content.
"GAME CONTINUITY" is what TSW has.
Meaning there will be things to stive for continuously:

Deck outfits and template completion
Aquisition of ALL skills
Finishing all investigations
Inter Society Ranking
The constant Meta-game of playing with all the skills to find kick ass synergies.
PvP<(as a general rule provides its own continuity)

And then there will be LEADER BOARD ACHEIVMENTS for almost everthing.

So imagine if youre a 7 card healer and have most of the skills in game,but youre only #5 on the leader board for highest crit heal up in the 800s,but the 4 people above you are 1000+.That right there would keep me trying to experament with skills till I get into the 1000s.


Imagine seeing yourself up there on the board as 1 of the top 10 crafters,or the highest sale numbers for the month!

Just the leader boards alone provide enough game continuity!

But it does boil down to the individuals mentality,if all you want to do is raid as 1 type of build and you dont care for acheivments or PvP,ect..then you will run out of things to do I guess.

Maxumus

Quote:
Originally Posted by Formorian View Post
That all being said so long as there is vertical progression in TSW you will need a segregate PvP gear from PvP gear somehow. Having vertical progression without a method to segregate the two gear systems will only lead to imbalances in how you acquire gear.
What's the problem with adding another tier of pvp gear when adding another tier of pve gear?

TSW doesn't have a pvp stat, instead pvp and pve will generate roughly equivalent gear, ie the power level between the two should be about the same.

Formorian

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxumus View Post
What's the problem with adding another tier of pvp gear when adding another tier of pve gear?

TSW doesn't have a pvp stat, instead pvp and pve will generate roughly equivalent gear, ie the power level between the two should be about the same.
Well this is kind of the answer that WoW uses on top of a PvP stat. That's why you only get a new PvP season when there is a new tier of raid content. The problem with this is you have caused the two to be coupled together. For the most part this means that PvPers have to wait for a new tier of raid content before they progress.

The next thing they need to make sure of in a system like this is that the ease with which you gain the gear is the same for both PvP and PvE cause if one is easier than the other or faster than that will be the correct answer. This mistake gets done every so often in WoW where getting a 2H-sword took 2 weeks in PvP where getting a similar weapon in PvE depending on RNG was well over 2 months. So guess where every competitive player who could use a 2H-sword went? Arena baby! Not because they liked it but because it was the correct way to gear.

JerryC

JerryC's Avatar
I was fully capped gear wise in daoc and still played another 2 or 3 years without reading vertical progression, because shock horror I was having fun playing rather than getting my kicks from drops. Daoc had stat caps.

Maxumus

That might be a problem for you then, especially if your idea of an end game revolves almost entirely around gear, and especially in a game that markets itself as having a more shallow gear curve but with horizontal progression.

TSW will most likely end up a niche game, but if done right it will be a successful one, meaning 300k+ subscribers.

Maybe the pvp section of the game will be enough to keep you playing for a month or maybe there'll be another game hitting the shelves soon that focuses more on your kind of pvp system. A game can't appeal to everyone and while this one doesn't seem to be aimed at you, to a holistic player like me that does pvp, pve, crafting, achievements, skill collection/experiments and whatever else that broadens my character, it might turn out to be a home run.

We've hashed out pvp stats a couple of times prior to your post here and my position is still that they cause more problems than they alleviate, so I was pretty stoked when the devs announced that they wouldn't include them.

Amica

Amica's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Formorian View Post
Well this is kind of the answer that WoW uses on top of a PvP stat. That's why you only get a new PvP season when there is a new tier of raid content. The problem with this is you have caused the two to be coupled together. For the most part this means that PvPers have to wait for a new tier of raid content before they progress.

The next thing they need to make sure of in a system like this is that the ease with which you gain the gear is the same for both PvP and PvE cause if one is easier than the other or faster than that will be the correct answer. This mistake gets done every so often in WoW where getting a 2H-sword took 2 weeks in PvP where getting a similar weapon in PvE depending on RNG was well over 2 months. So guess where every competitive player who could use a 2H-sword went? Arena baby! Not because they liked it but because it was the correct way to gear.
The underlined word should read "fastest," not "correct." It's human nature to take the path of least resistance. Many competitive raiders felt it was mandatory to participate in arenas just to get better weapons to keep up with the other competitive guilds, or even to keep their performance high enough not to be replaced.

The problem with tiers is:
A- Gear reset every patch, invalidating all the time you spent on your gear that tier/season.
B- Makes it harder and harder as tiers/seasons go by for new players to catch up.
C- Makes it easier for the good/lucky players to quickly outgear everyone else.

Now I'm not saying that there won't be vertical progression in TSW, but I doubt very very seriously it will come in the form of tiered PvE and PvP.

Again, don't try to fit TSW into a WoW mold. It's a very different setup for a different kind of MMO player.

ScytheKnight

ScytheKnight's Avatar
OK here's a question.. why does there "need" to be a difference between PvP gear and PvE gear? Why not just have (Shock! Horror! Ohh the humanity!) GEAR.
 

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