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Hycoo

Quote:
Originally Posted by ElTorqiro View Post
I'd like to see PvE gear become inactive in PvP territory. All characters instead have a single "PvP Slot" in which they can equip a freely available "PvP Role Item", from a pool of items, that contains the only stats enabled in PvP territory.
I disagree. If i wanted something like this i would go play Dota 2. I want to feel attached to my own character. But i understand what you are saying.

What TSW has the potential to do is making the difference in character power much smaller than in other games, but still have a great feeling of gear progression. How? By making gear you gain very specialized. You might be very good at cc, or very good at doing single target damage, or have a large health pool, but not everything at the same time. You have to sacrifice something to be great at something.

They have said there will be an inital gear climb (look Amica's graph). After this players can enter PvP or PvE and have a great impact on the game. They will have less health than those who specialize in that, but they might also have a little more damage than those same guys etc.

JerryC

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Formorian View Post
I think that "flatlined" progression is an appropriate word for what for what will happen to the game if players feel they have no significant way to improve their charcater's anymore. The problem with only having horizontal progression is that you can only go so far with that and make it compelling. Once I have all 500 skills, What now? There will be cookie cutter builds out there it's not like your going to have to look far to find out what the most powerful builds/decks are for any particular situation. Sure Funcom can come up with new situations that require diferent builds/decks but as soon as they are out players will know what deck they need to complete that new situation. So once you've aquired all your skills and all the gear for all your cookie cutter decks what now? Without vertical advancement to drive the players towards newer content why would they do it? I got all that gear already why would I beat my head against a wall for no reason?A game cannot survive on horizontal progression alone.
Hmm city of heroes went for like 8 years before it had to switch to f2p. Contrast with more recent games that adapted the "wow model"

brody

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Formorian View Post
Having this system prevents the situation where a player feels forced to take part in an activity he doesn’t enjoy to simply be competitive in the one he does enjoy. I like PvE, but the best way to get geared is through PvP so I better PvP if I want to be a good player. Going back to the old days of WoW before there was a PvP stat. I had a friend, he was a DPS warrior. He loved being a DPS warrior and he loved raiding with the guild. The problem was that raiding was a terribly inefficient way for him to accumulate gear to be a DPS warrior, but if he PvPed like crazy for several months he would be able to get the best DPS warrior gear in the game. So I didn’t see him in raids for several months as he grinded out all the honor he needed to get all his DPS gear. He really didn’t like PvP but what choice did he have? Eventually he returned to the raid and he did amazing DPS. However, nothing that dropped in the raid was better than what he already had so after a month, the realization that he had for all intensive purposes “finished” the game set in and he quit.

Now I stuck with the game for much longer than him and I remember the reverse problem occurring. As the tiers of PvE content progressed my guild became very well geared and eventually my guild decided to have a PvP night to have a change from raiding. Well it was incredibly successful we got in there and could faceroll our keyboard and mop the floor with dedicated teams of PvP players. Why because they were in PvP gear. What a bunch of newbs right? Didn’t they know that the best PvP gear was obtained through doing PvE? This is why the PvP stat was developed. It was a crud solution to an ugly problem.

If you read my suggestion you would see that I was not advocating for completely separate gear for PvP and PvE. Only that the "best" gear for PvE be obtained through PvE and that the "best" gear for PvP be obtained through PvP. My suggestion was to have a slight penalty to using PvP gear in a PvE situation making it only one step below when not used in the appropriate environment. This means that the best PvP gear would be the second best PvE. This allows for easy flow between PvE and PvP. It allows new players to gear up for either PvP or PvE in the way they like most and be able to perform in both environments to an acceptable level. Now if you want to be the best of the best, well you will have to PvP for your best PvP gear and vice versa, but if having the second best gear is okay with you (and for most it is) then you will be able to move freely from PvP to PvE without much of an effect on your performance.

Why have a penalty at all? Why not balance gear so you can obtain the same gear from both PvE and PVP with the exact same amount of time and effort? Because this perfect balancing act is a dream. Players are smart and if there is one that's easier/faster than the other by even a bit they will only do that. Not to mention that every time the game designers introduce vertical progression in gear they will have to make sure it is all perfectly balanced. It's better to put a system in effect that can handle the imperfection in balancing gear obtained through PvP and PvE rather than hope it will be perfectly balanced.

Now if with every tier of gear and every expansion that balance is hit perfectly you are correct there is no need to have a split between the two types of gear. What are the chances of that balance being hit perfectly? The consequences of not hitting that mark correctly are devastating to both PvP and PvE.

With my suggestion you will only need 1 set of gear to be the best geared PvP player and the second best geared PvE player. Now if you want to be the best of the best at both... yes you will need to keep two sets of gear. I think that is a small price to pay to have the best gear for both PvP and PvE. You could even mix and match your set if you do both and have some pieces from PvP and some from PvE.
youre describing a gear based, gear treadmill, type game. i for one pray that the secret world if far from this. otherwise i will not be playing it. someones success should not depend on how much they play the game. it should be a level playing field or all players no matter how much time they put into it. i dont want to feel forced to play a game just so i dont fall behind in the gear progression. gear should not matter, it should not dictate my success.

also there is no need for pvp or pve gear. gear is gear, you should be able to acquire it however you want. but there should be limited vertical progression with it. the difference in stats should not put someone into god mode.

Maxumus

Quote:
Originally Posted by brody View Post
it should be a level playing field or all players no matter how much time they put into it.
That wont be TSW. Gear is defined as one of two ways of character progression by the devs and while having a flatter scaling curve for gear means a little less of a gap between the "crafted blue set" and the "ultimate purple set", it by no means makes gear a non issue.

Funcom has another game called Bloodline Champions though, where you pick a character to play and have the exact same skills and stats as others that chose the same char. Seems to be more in line with what you're after.

Edit - I'm just going to quote another of your posts from a different thread since you seem to be posting the same thing everywhere:

Quote:
Originally Posted by brody View Post
my understanding is that there will be a minimal gear grind in this game, giving everyone a more level playing field when it comes to pvp in particular. But simply replacing the gear grind with a skill grind is kind of defeating the purpose.
That's simply not true. This is an MMO and the basic premiss is still the same, character progression. In TSW they are putting a little spin on the concept by not locking people down to a class, but character progression is still very much present.

As I said before, one of the two paths lies with gear and you'll need to collect sets to complement the different decks you come up with. You might have to go crit for a dps build, mitigation for a tank build or magic enhancement for a nuke or leech build.

Already, before even getting into the whole thing about rewards scaling with the difficulty of an encounter, you're chasing gear to be able to take on those encounters in the first place.

Then there's the skills. You'll be needing more specialized skills for harder encounters, and you get the experience for skill points by putting in play time.

Look, I understand your position. You don't want to be worse off than anybody else even though you can't play much. But do you understand my position? If you can play for one hour per week, assuming I play for 20 hours a week that would mean that my character would have to stand still and not progress at all for 19 of those hours for us to be on the same level.

I understand your motivation for playing that game, but what's mine?

brody

brody's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxumus View Post
That wont be TSW. Gear is defined as one of two ways of character progression by the devs and while having a flatter scaling curve for gear means a little less of a gap between the "crafted blue set" and the "ultimate purple set", it by no means makes gear a non issue.

Funcom has another game called Bloodline Champions though, where you pick a character to play and have the exact same skills and stats as others that chose the same char. Seems to be more in line with what you're after.

Edit - As an aside, I very much disagree with your position that time spent shouldn't be rewarded in MMO's.
well that's very dissapoointing, i was hoping this game would break the gear treadmill mode that most games have become. also, rewarding players for time spent is just acinine imo. all it does is lead to frustration for newer players. if a developer wants to sell more copies over time they would realize this. i can't think of nor have i heard a good argument or reason for time spent = win.

ElTorqiro

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hycoo View Post
I disagree. If i wanted something like this i would go play Dota 2.

What TSW has the potential to do is making the difference in character power much smaller than in other games, but still have a great feeling of gear progression. How? By making gear you gain very specialized. You might be very good at cc, or very good at doing single target damage, or have a large health pool, but not everything at the same time. You have to sacrifice something to be great at something.
I don't think specialised gear is really any different to class-based PvP armor sets in other games. Those are specialised for a specific class, the same way the build-centric gear you are describing would be specialised. It still doesn't stop the casual PvPers (who are the vast majority) from complaining and whinging that they either can't compete with well geared (i.e. time-rich) folk, or shifting the blame for their gear disadvantage to individual builds or skills and complaining that skill X is overpowered and must be nerfed.

FunCom's response to both those situations will be to make unnecessary and ill considered changes to the game to cater to the complaining hordes, which usually won't "solve" the perceived issue anyway, or the horde will be temporarily mollified before the next FOTM focus of ezmoding crops up. FunCom is no different to any other company, they aren't there to provide some moral high ground and take a stance against ezmoders - they are there to make money (and legally bound to make decisions on that premise since they are a public company) and they'll cave to ezmoders same as every other company.

I think the only way to avoid the majority of that is to remove gear as an influential factor in PvP engagements. By putting in role-centric, freely available stat gear as the only PvP enabled gear, you retain the variety of builds in use, enable skillfull players to have a measure of superiority, and yet still satisfy the instant gratification folks who make up the bulk of the casual crowd. The reference to DOTA (and similar games like LOL etc) is a good one, because it gives an example of a *game style* that has weathered the test of time with the PvP community in player retention. People seem to quite like being able to drop into games against other humans where the only advantage is your personal skill level in playing the game.

I'm not advocating at a philosophical level, but rather trying to be realistic about the likely result if the same mechanics for PvP are used in TSW as appear in other similar MMOs. Taking a pragmatic approach to that means, as a player, having to sacrifice some of what I think should happen (i.e. gear advantage being ok with me), and instead substitute some thinking about what has a chance to maintain a healthy PvP environment with a consistently high population. It's the same reason I'm taking a pragmatic approach to the Store - philosophically I'm dead against the idea of a sub+MT model, but if that's what is going to keep the game afloat and generating new content regularly, then I will put up with it.

As a final comment on this one, I guess that TSW has a chance to have a better integrated PvE & PvP community because (as far as I know) you cannot acquire skills through PvP. I don't think you earn XP from doing it (am I wrong? I don't know!) so presumably if you want to make your character more versatile in PvP beyond your starting deck you'll need to go out and do PvE content. This would lead to acquisition of gear as well, so TSW at least has some chance of avoiding a fair bit of the usual gear wars between PvP and PvE acquisition methods. I certainly hope so.

brody

brody's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxumus View Post
That wont be TSW. Gear is defined as one of two ways of character progression by the devs and while having a flatter scaling curve for gear means a little less of a gap between the "crafted blue set" and the "ultimate purple set", it by no means makes gear a non issue.

Funcom has another game called Bloodline Champions though, where you pick a character to play and have the exact same skills and stats as others that chose the same char. Seems to be more in line with what you're after.

Edit - I'm just going to quote another of your posts from a different thread since you seem to be posting the same thing everywhere:



That's simply not true. This is an MMO and the basic premiss is still the same, character progression. In TSW they are putting a little spin on the concept by not locking people down to a class, but character progression is still very much present.

As I said before, one of the two paths lies with gear and you'll need to collect sets to complement the different decks you come up with. You might have to go crit for a dps build, mitigation for a tank build or magic enhancement for a nuke or leech build.

Already, before even getting into the whole thing about rewards scaling with the difficulty of an encounter, you're chasing gear to be able to take on those encounters in the first place.

Then there's the skills. You'll be needing more specialized skills for harder encounters, and you get the experience for skill points by putting in play time.

Look, I understand your position. You don't want to be worse off than anybody else even though you can't play much. But do you understand my position? If you can play for one hour per week, assuming I play for 20 hours a week that would mean that my character would have to stand still and not progress at all for 19 of those hours for us to be on the same level.

I understand your motivation for playing that game, but what's mine?
i understand that getting skills and gear will require time. im looking for more info on the game. and i appreciate your posts. but i dont think you understand my position. im trying to find out if the gear and skills you accquire becuase you play more will put me at a significant disadvantage particularly pertaining to pvp. im concerned if this will be a gear treadmill type game. meaning the more someone plays, the more there gear exponentially increases in power. i dont think it is good design, to reward the most active players with significant advantages over the more casual.

Jindae

Quote:
Originally Posted by brody View Post
well that's very dissapoointing, i was hoping this game would break the gear treadmill mode that most games have become. also, rewarding players for time spent is just acinine imo. all it does is lead to frustration for newer players. if a developer wants to sell more copies over time they would realize this. i can't think of nor have i heard a good argument or reason for time spent = win.
Im bit disappointed too, was also hoping that all gear stats will be gone like upcoming MMOs do. Waited game already many years and they said clothes are only social, but found out that there is invisible buff gear with stats, very bad. Well, while waiting GW2.

Ragz45

I highly sugest you guys read this Interview, in it they talk about gear among other things. One of the things mentioned by the dev's is that many of the different builds will require different sets of gear.

So as you progress through the game, you will need to build up multiple sets of gear to go in tandem with the multiple builds you acquire. Imagine adding a pvp gear system into this mix. That essentially doubles the number of gear sets you have to build in order to accommodate the multiple builds you would have.

Amica

Amica's Avatar
There will be gear grinding involved, but remember that every drop you get can be used. There will be gear grinds, but not in the manner that you would see in WoW; for example, you won't replace your [Really Awesome Sword of Agility +5] with [Billy Bad-Ass's Totally Awesome Sword of Agility +6] just because a new patch came out and took the carrot out of your mouth and hung it just out of reach again.
 

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